Affirmative
Sunday, April 20, 2008
Interesting news out of India this week that the Supreme Court has ruled to extend quotas for universities based on "class, race, religion or economic circumstance."This ruling has received criticism for legitimizing and even legalizing the caste system, which has long been abolished in India. In order to give advantage to people from "backwards" castes, one must define "backwards," and in the process enforce prejudices that are illegal.
When Ellen and I were there this past winter, we clearly saw evidence of a hierarchical system of people. It's very clear and open. I thought of comparing it to the U.S., and our varying levels of historic economic and racial segregation. I'm sure the two countries' forms of discrimination vary greatly, but would be interested in reading a comparison if anyone knows of a good one.
On that note, I think it's interesting to compare the Indian view of "affirmative action" with regards to the caste system as compared to what the Democratic U.S. presidential candidates said last Thursday during the Philadelphia debates. While I haven't decided for whom I will vote come November, I found the answers similarly contested. Should affirmative action be enforced and hence a form of legalized discrimination? How should it be defined if so? Should our focus rather be on reaching the less fortunate much earlier in life?
-dr-
Labels: india america debates discrimination affirmative action
As you pretty much say it's fairly evident the caste system has long been abolished in name, but definitely not in practice. However, the fact that it still does exist is a major problem and this could be a step towards recognising and rectifying the divisions. It would be worse if they pretended the divisions did not exist, don't you think?
PS Come and look at my pretty new blog
I'm interested to hear from an Indian whether they view castes and the caste system/discrimination similarly to how we Americans view slavery and racism/discrimination. Very different topics, but also intertwined.
I.e. Races exist, and there are certain, undisputable differences between races. Those differences in some cases are used as a basis for discrimination.
My understanding of the caste system is that castes themselves are socio-religious categorizations that have not in themselves been abolished, but rather the socio-political system of discrimination based on castes has been abolished. In other words, people may self-identify and be proud of their caste (race), but not discriminated against for it.
I'm starting to read Gandhi's autobiography, which starts with the line: "The Gandhis belong to the Bania caste and seem to have originally grocers." Interesting that even the father of the downfall of the caste system identified first and foremost by caste.
Can castes be compared to race? Gender? Socio-economic status?
Is there a penalty for falsifying your caste? I assume it's death.
Let em have what they want. There's a great system of discrimination at work in the states too. It's a little bit more flexible (that's the American dream, moving up one class), but based on the family you're born or married into, your choices in life are very restricted. In the States it's based on the bank, in India it's based on the church. I think our version is a million times better, but is it necessary to remake every country in the world in our image?
I guess it's a bit like smoking weed, it's illegal, but it still happens and sometimes police turn a blind eye. It depends on the caste you are in, for example, which might explain why some castes proudly self identified. I, for one, certainly wouldn't want to be an untouchable. They are not even regarded as being a caste, they have no choice but to self identify as such, but I'm not sure how many appreciate the discrimination they face on a daily basis.
I'd be interested in knowing if there were a quota for untouchables in the education system.
Interesting question Aras, I doubt they would be a formal death penalty, but I reckon if someone from a lower caste attempted to pass themselves off as higher caste would face marginalisation upon discovery, and yes, possibly even death depending on the deck of the divide between the castes. Similar I guess in a sense to the fact that honour killings are illegal in Jordan, but they still happen, but really are sufficient sentences handed out to those rare cases that end up in a conviction.
The following are interesting cases in point.
Untouchable Burnt to Death after Accusing High Caste Man of Rape
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/untouchable-burnt-to-death-after-accusing-highcaste-man-of-rape-425683.html
AND more recently
'Untouchable' Mother Dies after Being Refused Treatment in Hospital
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/04/25/1208743209781.html
Discrimination on the basis of caste is technically illegal (I think the last census which took cast into account was in the late 1920s) but it still happens, and when you look at Indian politics for example, Brahmins make up about 5% of India's population, but something like 85% of MPs. Now if that's not institutionalised discrimination I don't know what is.
I've never been big on quotas, but I think in this case it is a good idea.
I don't think it has anything to do with remaking every country in the world like America, because I'm Australian, and while there are quite a few similarities between our two countries, there are inherent differences, such as easier access to top notch higher education, and by easier I mean affordable, or at least within reach.
I truly believe that educating the masses will bring India out of the abject poverty affecting a large majority of its citizens, so unless the issue of the caste system is addressed that's not going to happen. So ultimately this is an issue of alleviating poverty, rather than imposing a value system.
I didn't think a belief in equal rights for all was a uniquely American trait.
What said that all men are created equal? Was that an American or somebody else, I can't remember...
Anyway, that doesn't matter. What I meant was that the world is not a democracy, and that even if every country in the world opposes it, I believe in India's right to a caste system, as long as it's not imposed by tyranny, like it used to be Iraq before the good guys got there.
As long as a caste system is not imposed by tyranny? Depends on how you define tyranny I guess, but I sure as hell would not want to be an untouchable or lower caste individual in India. I don't think many people are actually fully aware of the plight of the Untouchables in India. One of my best mates Trishani who was born in Australia to Indian parents thinks it's retarded that the caste prejudices are still carried over into "the New World" because they are the ingrained, and it is horrifically discriminatory, so does lack of access (or even the opportunity of) to education, proper health care etc due to caste count as tyranny?
And yeah, yeah all men are created equal, good one, but just because Jefferson said that and it is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence (which my father has a copy of in his study that my parents bought on a trip to the States in 1984) does not mean the US has a monopoly today on the belief in equal rights for all, something about universal human rights...?? Anyway, I don't think women and blacks were included in Jefferson's version of "all", for example... times change, and again I stick to my original point, I don't believe the USA or Americans in general are the only people in the world opposed to the institutionalised discrimination of the caste system
"I don't believe the USA or Americans in general are the only people in the world opposed to institutionalized discrimination"
Really? Cause I'm pretty sure they are. If you had to sum up in one word what every country stands for, America is the only country that stands for freedom. E.g.:
Lithuania: Basketball
Germany: National-Socialism
Austria: Abduction
England: Gingivitis
Canada: Maples
Mexico: Emigration
Cuba: Cigars
Japan: Japanamation
Afghanistan: Afghanistanamation
China: Communism
North Korea: Extermination
India: Castes
Africa: Poverty
Egypt: Pyramids
France: Stench
Russia: Pseudo-Democracy
Poland: Light-bulb
Sweden: Šarūnas
Italy: Relaxation
Cyprus: Sunlight
Finland: Darkness
Jamaica: Weed
Panama: Canal
Siberia: Cold
Amsterdam: Red-light-district
Lichtenstein: Tiny
Vatican City: Pope
Lesotho: Surrounded
Iceland: Green
Greenland: Ice
Kazakhstan: Borat
Bahamas: Vacation
Costa Rica: Cocaine
Czech Republic: Party
Ethiopia: Emaciation
Ireland: Drunk
Kuwait: Oil
Kenya: Runners
Switzerland: Watches
Thailand: Shrimp-slavery
Australia: Kangaroos
So while I concede that other nationalities may cherish freedom, I’ve clearly made plain the fact that no country besides the States holds freedom and liberty as its #1priority.
And for the record, I'm well aware of the plight of the untouchables, I saw the movie!
Nice list, buuuuuttttt.....
Did you know that yesterday, only yesterday, some Lithuanian basketballer tried to sell me some weed as powerful
as German Nazi Propaganda produced by an Austrian despot with teeth as bad as an Essex girl with suppurating
gingivitis?
It smelt as sweet as a maple leaf, I tell you! However, the Lithuanian basketballer was accompanied by an emigrant from
Mexico who also gave me a good deal on Cuban cigars by way of a Havana Cubano with a predilection for anime, then some
Talibani motherfucker tried to sell me Communism, can you believe it, Communism? Foo blet!
Then the North Korean colleague of the Talibani motherfucker tried to exterminate the caste system in India and Vishnu
jumped in and said that God's deification of poverty was not good... and so they believed it was not good. In heaven,
that is.
But then Africa went and also got the idea that that poverty was not good, but then Egypt laughed and said how could we
have built the pyramids without the forced labour of poverty stricken Jews in Exodus?
That's when the French jumped in and complained about le Stink, because you know what they're like, they always
complain, even before they existed as a nation. Complain, complain, complain.
Then Russia decided they wanted to be a democracy but Poland got in the way and invented the lightbulb which, albeit to
no avail, illuminated the Russkis about the concept of a free election, but then Koon came along and taught them the
virtues of a Swedish welfare state social democracy, nevertheless with the relaxed willingness of adherence to taxation
such as exists in Italy.
And then God came along and said let there be light, so he gifted the warmth of Cypriot light upon rich westerners to
enjoy the sun but not worry about the fractured state of the island, and theneth Godeth becameth annoyedeth at the
excesses of the Westerneth touristseth uponeth the sacredeth islandeth and henceforth banished his children into the
darkness of Finland, whereupon Jamaican weed became as available as the Panama Canal... at a cost naturally.
And then God became angered by the debauchery of those exiled to the darkness of Finland, where they enjoyed being
stoned on Jamaican weed while pony trekking or camping or just watching TV, so God thereupon senteth themeth to-eth
Siberia where it was too cold for weed to grow at which point Xenu intervened and teletransported their Thetans to
Amsterdam.
Amsterdam had lights, you see, many red lights, and much, much precious weed, (big tits and cheap sex too), but
suddenly the red light was no longer enough, such light was simply no longer enough, whereuponeth the-eth remainingeth
Thetans spiritedeth themselves-eth away-eth to the safety of tiny Lichtenstein, which is a German city in Saxony, not a
little country... well it could be, but you forgot to drop one of the t's.
Upon suffering the disappointment of the extra T, the Thetans then decided to make their way south to the
Vatican to sort out the Pope, because they came in spaceships, dammit, and had to let him know the whole story
of his paternal grandmother being a virgin was bullshit. At least spaceships go zoooom, y'know.
Benedict cried Ach nein, nein, nein, you are hurting me like Lesotho wizzout condoms,, and then "Ich bin not
zee only guilty one" cried-eth he-eth loudER! Lesotho don't need zee condoms, zey need to be, need to be... uh,
az green az Iceland, ja, ja, Iceland, das ist recht, becozz Iceland iz green and Greenland iz ice!
At this point Hashem got really annoyed and banished Benedict and all the Thetans to Kazakhstan, whereupon the forces
of anti-liberty, terrorist, reactionary forces made all of them wear blue hats. Yahweh then got pissed at Hashem for
stealing his name, presuming she was was a bloke, and took off to the Bahamas for a vacation whereupon she got really
bored and hopped over to Costa Rica to procure some cocaine, which of course reminded her of the good old days when she
tricked Moses into believing that bush was burning. Heh. Those were the days!
The opiates became too much so she decided to venture into the exquisitely cultural European world she had created,
upon which she suddenly became a man again (isn't she/he all?) and arrived on a Ryanair flight in Prague for a buck's
party in honour of someone whose name he can't remember. Sorta. Kinda. After a few days he was as an emaciated as an
Ethiopian and drunker than an Irishman so he decided to travel to Kuwait for some oil, not to run his car or his
aeroplanes or or trains or trolley buses or Porsches or Vauxhall Astras or whatever, but for oil to make a big fat
oilier than an oily Cepeliniai greasy hamburger to cure his hangover. Aww, yeah.
God ran to that hamburger like a Kenyan to a riot for democracy, like a Swiss disregarding their watch for the first
time, like a Thai child released from shrimp slavery and then bounced about like a kangaroo upon the joy of the taste
of a big fat, oily hamburger.
Because, after all, some Lithuanian basketballer sold God some weed and the Almighty got hungry.
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By the way Arai, you did not clearly make plain the fact that no country besides the States holds freedom and liberty
as its number one priority, you just perpetuated a bunch of truncated stereotypes. Just because the words freedom and
liberty might exist in certain documents does not mean that the US have a monopoly on the belief in equal rights for
all, I am not saying that the United States as a country does not believe in equal rights, I am simply saying that they
do not have a monopoly on the idea.
I was not born in the States, nor have I ever been there, but I definitely do plan to make it there one day, I truly
look forward to it, but I repeat, in my original words, that the States do not have a monopoly on the belief in equal
rights for all... isn't that kind of what you were trying to say anyway?
PS., I haven't seen The Untouchables in years, but it rocked eh? Are you a fan of The Sopranos by any chance?
PPS I am horrified that I wrote that stone cold sober. Does that mean I need a life? It's Saturday night and all I have to do is retort Aras on Dario blog.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that means I need a life.
you'll never convince me that you wrote it sober, so give it up.
you'll also need some better material to convince me that america doesn't have a monopoly on prioritizing freedom. every country i know of prioritizes welfare before freedom. america isn't perfect, but they have much less welfare there than anywhere i can think of, which is absolutely necessary for freedom: i'm not free as long as i have to pay to take care of people i don't choose too.
Who said freedom? I said a belief in equal rights for all.
I did write that sober, even if you choose not to believe me. I can't drink as much as I used to in the old days, but you would be surprised how extreme tiredness does things to the brain akin to inebriation. I was tired as all fuck and bored as hell when I wrote it, not wasted. However, I would be extremely proud of myself if I had written that wasted.
Now that we are onto welfare rather than the caste system, do you honestly believe that the provision of welfare, every single type of welfare, restricts freedom? Are you an anarchist or something?